HC Shark Tank Winner Ben Kaplan ’16 Set to Launch New Social Networking App

As those of you who are avid readers of this blog might remember, last spring the Ciocca Office of Entrepreneurial Studies and the Entrepreneurship Club co-sponsored the inaugural Holy Cross Shark Tank competition where Ben Kaplan ’16 took home the grand prize for his original social networking app: WiGO.

Well, we are excited to announce that since last spring Kaplan has taken serious strides towards making WiGO (Who is Going Out) come alive and he has the initial launch slated for this early October.  Holy Cross just might have its very own Mark Zuckerburg on its hands.

The goal of Kaplan’s app is to simplify the process of making social plans for college students.  As a freshman at HC, Kaplan felt that making social plans and figuring out “who is going out?” was unnecessarily challenging.  College students didn’t want to constantly be sending out group texts and no one wanted to always be posting all the details of social plans online and so WiGO was born.

The app creates networks based on a users’ college or university email address so that, for example, when an HCer logs in their homepage will show all of the other HCers who are users and indicate who has – or has not – said they’re headed out that night.  There’s no specifics given, just “I am going out”, and there’s no friending process like with Facebook.  Rather, if you go to HC you can see everyone else in your network and vice versa.  From there, Kaplan believes that this app will make it easy to see who wants to go out and then utilize the app’s chat function to make plans.  Additionally, if you see someone on the app who you’d like to encourage to go out you have the option to “shoulder tap” them, which lets them know you’d like them to see them out.

I had the chance to sit down and talk to Kaplan last week, as he prepared for the upcoming app launch, and what I was really struck by was the way he has developed an initial idea he had last spring into a real live app.  He explained to me how he’d started the summer interviewing web developers and coders and ultimately settled on a team from Green Mountain Software, located in his hometown of Burlington, VT.  He then spent the rest of the summer working with them to take what was initially an idea in his head and turn it into something that’s accessible and user friendly.  We discussed why he decided to hire a local team, rather than outsourcing the coding as many app developers do, and he said that the opportunity to actually meet with, and have easy access to, his coding team was ultimately one of the best decisions he made.  It allowed him to take real ownership in the creation process and meant that he could be involved making changes and decisions during the course of development.

Kaplan also credited the Holy Cross alumni network as being indispensable in this process.  The time and feedback that he said so many alumni were willing to give him was very beneficial in the development of this app.  Last spring, Shark Tank judge Chris Stephenson had told Kaplan that if he brought his idea to Seattle he’d meet with him to discuss.  Kaplan cashed in on this promise over the summer, flying to the West Coast to meet, and also said that there were many other alumni who connected him with local entrepreneurs, weighed in on questions of copyright and intellectual property law and offered feedback as he moved through the process.

Obviously in launching an app, the marketing efforts are, in many ways, as important as the actual coding and Kaplan explained that he had a clear game plan for that too: he was starting by focusing on sports teams here at HC, because such a larger percentage of students are involved in them, and had reached out to individuals on the various teams to get them onboard as ambassadors.  The plan is that these individuals will encourage their teammates to download, and use, the app thus creating the initial injection of users needed to get WiGO off the ground.  From there the hope is that it will catch on organically and as students see how easy and effective it is to use they will encourage their friends to use it, too.

What’s the plan long term?  Well, Kaplan is initially launching the app exclusively here at Holy Cross and you need to have a verified Holy Cross student email address in order to register.  But, looking forward, Kaplan said his next step would be to roll it out to a handful of additional colleges, continue to monitor its growth, and then allow it to continue to spread to schools across the country.

Towards the end of our talk Kaplan said that he thinks no matter what happens with WiGO – whether it gets off the ground or not – the process of creating the app and bringing it to market has been incredibly valuable in and of itself.  That being said, after listening to him for an hour – hearing where the idea came from, how he built the app, and how he plans to roll it out – this blogger has a hard time believing Kaplan isn’t going to make this a success.

HC students participate in “Building Your Brand” workshop with Mimi Doherty ’02, President of Future Steps, LLC

For this week’s blog post we have guest blogger Chris Muzii ’14 filling us in on last weekend’s COES Professional Programs workshop…

My name is Christopher Muzii, and I am a sophomore. This past Saturday, I attended the Building Your Brand Workshop hosted by Mimi Doherty ’02, President and Founder of Future Steps, LLC. After my wonderful experience participating in the Summer Business Program, I was interested in taking advantage of the many opportunities available to students through the Ciocca Office of Entrepreneurial Studies. In addition, one of my good friends had participated in the Building Your Brand Workshop last year and highly recommended that I attend. The workshop proved to be a truly rewarding experience.

The first activity involved looking at what defined and individual’s brand. We used Jay-Z and Steve Jobs as examples of individuals whose personal brands have had a tremendous impact on society. Individually, my group discussed the factors that helped shape the personal brand of Jay-Z. Mimi asked us to consider not only the attributes of the individual, but also how these attributes are portrayed to the general public. How are we able to characterize Jay-Z as musically innovative without having ever met him? What does Jay-Z do or what impact does he create that allows us to identify his personal brand? We discussed with Mimi why we attributed certain traits to these individuals. Through thoughtful collaboration, Mimi helped us to redefine certain words that we were using to describe Jay-Z and Steve Jobs.

After the conclusion of the first exercise, Mimi asked us to consider our own personal brand. What attributes or skills do we possess that help define who we are as individuals? Through a similar process, we came to understand how to better distinguish ourselves individually by examining our own attributes and skills. We then edited our personal résumés, at this point having a better understanding of our personal brand and how to portray this brand to potential employers.

I am very fortunate to have had the opportunity to participate in this workshop. The advice and questions that Mimi presented us with were both informative and valuable. The exercises that we completed throughout the day allowed us to gain a better understanding of what constitutes a personal brand. Having this knowledge, I feel that I will be able to relate my attributes to the past experiences that I have had appropriately in a professional setting.

Thanks Chris!  We’re glad everyone found the workshop beneficial and hope to see many of you at the information session for the Executive Leadership Workshop on Monday, September 30 at 5P.

As always, don’t forget to “Like” us on FACEBOOK, follow us on Twitter and look for our WIBSBP and ELW groups on LinkedIN.


Helene Horan ‘06
Associate Director, Entrepreneurial Studies

Congratulations Team Brennan! Winner of the 2013 SBP Team Competition.

It’s hard to believe that the 4 weeks of the 2013 Summer Business Program have already come and gone!  It seems like just yesterday that the group was gathering for their first session, most of them not knowing one another, anxiously awaiting to see what exactly they’d gotten themselves into when they applied for this program…

Last Friday, during the final presentations of the team projects, none of that anxiety was present (or, at least, they did a good job hiding it!) and all of the teams impressed the judges with their presentations!

But, first, to rewind…

The first three days of Week 4 of SBP were focused on more technical skills.  Spearheaded by several GE employees the SBP students spent Monday afternoon learning about personal branding, Tuesday focusing on Excel and Wednesday exploring PowerPoint. It was great to have the opportunity for the students to hear from some recent alum, many of whom are in the GE rotational program, and get a day of intensive training with these various programs. Coming out of the Excel day many of the students were indicating they definitely wanted to take the fall Excel workshop – while they learned a lot in one day, it was clear there was so much more to explore and all the alum from GE emphasized how important it is to be able to use Excel if you’re interested in a career in business!

The students had Thursday to work as teams, putting the finishing touches on their projects, and then Friday was game time. Every team had a slightly different project, based on their team exec’s assignment, but the common denominator was that they were all very impressive standing in front of the room. In spite of having to present in front of all their classmates – something that some of the students weren’t thrilled about – watching the presentations it was clear how much time and effort all the groups had poured into their projects. Team Schiffmann put together a marketing pitch for a new wall siding product that’s ideal for DIY home owners. Team Malley presented a pitch to secure funding for a new drug that the group thinks can cure Crohn’s disease. Team Correia came up with a new brand of Irish-American whiskey and Team Villa created a pitch to secure funding for their bicycle company. Lastly, Team Brennan – which ultimately ended up winning – pitched a business plan for a new app that would help facilitate students’ study abroad experiences and allow for parents to more easily track and communicate with their children.

All five were very impressive! But, at the end of the day, the judges felt that Team Brennan was the best developed and the best presented so they walked away with the prize.

I think I speak for all the alum who participated in SBP when I say that this year’s group of students really took advantage of the Summer Business Program and it will be exciting to see where their interest in business takes them in the future!  Who knows, perhaps in a few years some of them will be back on campus teaching a session rather than sitting in the audience.

As always, don’t forget to “Like” us on FACEBOOK, follow us on Twitter and look for our WIBSBP and ELW groups on LinkedIN.


Helene Horan ’06
Associate Director, Entrepreneurial Studies

Summer Business 2013, Week 3: Credit Card Bills, M&Ms and Cosmo magazine

After learning about some of the technical side of business last week, Week 3 of Summer Business switched gears and worked through business ethics, personal finance, global business, advertising and personal branding.

Bill Liesman ’72, on Monday, and Tom Patton ’86, on Wednesday, anchored the week with discussions of business ethics. The students dove into case studies and found themselves debating amongst themselves the ethics behind business scenarios involving hiring, firing, expense reports, etc.

Prof. Anderton introduced the students to Personal Finance and Mutual Funds. Not only did he give lots of great tips on how the students should manage their money (i.e. avoid credit card debt!) but he also introduced them to websites and resources that could be used for researching mutual funds. The student groups were all assigned a specific fund, too, and then given time to research the fund and present their findings to the entire student group.

Thursday was jam packed and full of exciting sessions. Stu Graham ’67 spent the morning regaling the students with stories about his experience with an international construction company. Particularly interesting was the ethical plan that Stu described as being in place at his company; everyone was impressed to think about how ethical business practices can – and are – implemented even in large global companies.

Then, Thursday afternoon Jim Mullins ’95, Global Initiatives Director at Mars Inc, got everyone’s blood sugar up with the 100lbs of chocolate bars he brought with him. Jim talked to the students about what it’s like to work for a large private family-owned company. The students got to hear about, and sample, a variety of Limited Edition candies and got to work as teams on a case study to come up with a creative solution to a problem from several decades ago.

Rounding out a full week of classes, Friday morning was split between a session entitled “Getting Your First Job”, with Mary Donahue Quinlan ’76 from Cosmopolitan magazine, and a session on Advertising with Julie Halpin ’84. Both sessions were incredibly well received and very interactive.

Mary kicked the day off being brutally honest with the students about what they need on their resumes (think: internships not just ice cream scooping), how to write a cover letter (think: brief and readable not a term paper) and what to wear to that first interview (ironed not wrinkled and, for the girls, definitely not white boots). She also stressed to the students the importance of follow-up. I don’t think any student who was in that session will ever again conclude a cover letter with “…and I look forward to hearing from you.” Follow-up is on you, Mary told the students.

Then Julie had the challenge of being the final session on Friday afternoon at the end of a long week of classes. However, it s clear that her information on advertising got a lot of the students very excited. After giving the students an overview of the industry the students started diving into actual current advertising campaigns. Julie’s experience having started and run her own firm elicited a lot of questions from the students and it certainly seemed like her session quite likely sparked newfound interest with some of the students.

Julie will be back with the students on Monday morning for another half day session and she sent them off to the weekend with some homework: first, create a new product in an assigned category and put together a brief campaign and, second, find a favorite tv commercial and bring it in for “show-and-tell”. Check back in the next post for the results!

As always, don’t forget to “Like” us on FACEBOOK, follow us on Twitter and look for our WIBSBP and ELW groups on LinkedIN.


Helene Horan ’06
Associate Director, Entrepreneurial Studies

Week 2 SBP 2013: Finance, Sales and the New England Patriots!

This year’s Summer Business students are now halfway through the program and are continuing to impress all of the alumni teachers who are coming through. With Week 2 all wrapped up, the students have now received an overview of several more technical areas of business this week: accounting, finance, sales and marketing.

Prof. Chu kicked off the week with Megan Williams ’07 to teach the session on accounting and “Understanding Financial Statements.” The students had the chance to examine the financial statements for Pandora and get a sense of what you can learn by looking at these documents.

The rest of the week built on this session as the students dug into the nuts and bolts of finance, sales techniques and marketing. While some of the material was challenging, the response from the alumni teachers was unanimous: the students were impressive, engaging and did a great job digging in. Particularly fun? When the students were put on the spot and had to try to role play using the SPIN sales technique that they had just learned.

Then, Friday was the fun day – a field trip to Gillette Stadium to learn about the business of sports! While we didn’t get to see Tom Brady (much to some of the students’ chagrin!) the students receive a comprehensive tour of the stadium, a chance to walk around on the field and spotted the New England Revolution practicing. Then Jim Wilson ’93, VP of Finance, spent a couple of hours talking with the group about the business side of sports. Sitting in a conference room full of Patriots pictures, it was hard not to be inspired and excited about this side of business. Check out the Prebiz Facebook page (link below) for pictures from the trip.

On tap for next week? Ethics, Personal Finance, Adverstising and Creating Your Personal Brand….2 weeks down, 2 to go!

As always, don’t forget to “Like” us on FACEBOOK, follow us on Twitter and look for our WIBSBP and ELW groups on LinkedIN.


Helene Horan ’06
Associate Director, Entrepreneurial Studies

Summer Business 2013 is underway…

The 2013 edition of Holy Cross’ Summer Business Program is off and running…1.5 weeks into the 4 week program!  Today the students have time to spend working in teams on their 4-week long group project, so it seemed like a good time for an update on how the program is going thus far:

We kicked off SBP on Tuesday of last week. 29 eager and committed students moved back to campus to spend a month of their summer vacation in pursuit of business knowledge and so far they’ve really impressed all of the teachers.  Last week started with Clint Greenleaf ’97 running a session on “What is a Business? And how do I start one?”  Not only was Clint able to talk to the students about technical information but he also gave some good etiquette tips from his book The Unwritten Rules of the Workplace.

Day 2 was a big day – the students spent the entire day working with Moira Garvey ’78 and Mary Ann Rettig-Zucchi, from Jupiter Consulting Group, to explore their leadership styles and how to enhance their performance and engagement when working in groups.  In advance of this session the students had several pre-work assignments, including an online assessment and soliciting letters of character reference from people who knew them well.  This information, coupled with interactive activities like the Group Tower Building exercise made for an enlightening and interactive day.  The students were then able to take what they learned about themselves as leaders into that evening’s dinner when they were introduced to the Team Executives and received the details of the team project that they’ll be working on over the course of the next several weeks.  (Stay tuned for details regarding who wins the cash prize!)

Days 3 & 4 we were back in the classroom focusing on “Faith, Values and Ethics” with William Messenger, “Corporate Frameworks & Tax Implications” with Jack Malley ’77 and “Career Planning & Interview Skills” with Pam Ahearn, Director of Holy Cross’ Summer Internship Program and Megan Chester, Assistant Director of Career Counseling.  I think it’s fair to say that the students were tired by the end of Week 1 but everyone seemed to agree that they were wasting no time absorbing all the information that they possibly could.

Hopefully all the students groups are currently huddled somewhere on campus, actively engaged in their team projects, and taking advantage of the time they have to work together! The Team Execs are back on campus tomorrow night for dinner so I’m sure they’ll be looking to see what progress has been made…and I know everyone here in the Prebusiness Office is excited to see what innovated ideas this year’s group of SBP students comes up with.

As always, don’t forget to “Like” us on FACEBOOK, follow us on Twitter and look for our WIBSBP and ELW groups on LinkedIN.


Helene Horan ’06
Associate Director, Entrepreneurial Studies

First Annual HCEG Shark Tank a Success: Great ideas & How to make $1 million…

Last evening’s First Annual Shark Tank competition, sponsored by the Holy Cross Entrepreneurs Group and Ciocca Office of Entrepreneurial Studies, was a resounding success.  With registration somewhat uncertain right up until the event started, no one in the room was totally sure what to expect, but by the end of the night the feeling was unanimous – these Holy Cross students had some really great ideas!

The night kicked off with pizza and soda and the room was filled not just with competitors but spectators who showed up to see what their classmates had managed to come up with for ideas.  Seniors Andrew Coury and Ed Pesce, co-chairs of the HC Entrepreneurs Group on campus, were in charge of planning this event and they recruited quite an esteemed panel of alumni judges to give feedback – both positive and negative – to the student teams participating.  These judges included: Mary Moran ’77, Patrick Sansonetti ’93, John Schiffmann ’82, Chris Stephenson ’97 and Bryan Sparkes ’04.

Unlike the television version of Shark Tank, the HC competition didn’t involve a lot of yelling but that didn’t stop the judges from asking critical questions and really challenging the students to think about how, exactly, their business would work.

In all, there were 5 pitches – two teams and three individuals – and the ideas included a dorm delivery service where students could order necessities and have them delivered in under an hour, a service to help people more successfully embrace the tailgating experience, an autodetailing company that would come to your home or work to clean your car, and a video game where the player assumed the character of a dog and faced “dog-like” challenges.

However, at the end of the night, it was freshman Ben Kaplan who walked away with the $100 prize for the top idea.  Not only had Kaplan clearly spent a great deal of time thinking about how, exactly, his idea for a new social media platform would work but he had already come up with a clever acronym for the name of the product and had a logo.  (Specifics are being omitted because Kaplan is in the process of working to actually get this idea off the ground and this blogger doesn’t want to be accused of “over sharing”!)  To give you an idea of how impressed the judges were with Kaplan’s presentation, let’s just say that when he was awarded top prize one of the alumni judges offered him the chance to get in a room with real investors and do a formal pitch.

The other great thing about this event was not only did the students give impressive presentations, but the alumni all took the opportunity to use their professional experiences to give the students in the ro0m insight and advice on how to go about launching a successful idea.  One of the favorite take aways from the night was Chris Stephenson’s advice on how to make $1 million:  “Figure out how to make $1.  Then do it one million times.”  Sounds pretty simple, right?

Overall, a great night.  The level of excitement was definitely high as people left the competition and lots of people indicated that they are looking forward to seeing this grow into an annual event at Holy Cross.  If the ideas that keep coming in the future are as strong as last night’s, there’s no doubt that Shark Tank will become even more competitive and, hopefully, attract a growing number of students to take the risk, come up with an idea and participate.

Thank you to all the judges, student participants and spectators for taking the time to come out and we’ll see you again next year for Shark Tank Round #2.

As always, don’t forget to “Like” us on FACEBOOK, follow us on Twitter and look for our WIBSBP and ELW groups on LinkedIN.


Helene Horan
Associate Director, Entrepreneurial Studies

Exploring Global Business and Corporate Social Responsibility with Green Mountain Coffee-Keurig on Day 4

Karen Gallagher, Senior Marketing Director at Green Mountain Coffee – Keurig and mother of a current Holy Cross junior, braved the snow on the fourth day of ELW 2013 to make sure the students could learn about global business and corporate social responsibility (or, CSR).  As was a theme of the week, the day was focused on group work.  Karen kicked off the session giving an overview of GMCR/Keurig, highlighting the company’s mission and values, the way they communicate (or, don’t communicate) these values to all invested constituencies – employees, customers, farmers, etc – and the challenges that GMCR/Keurig is facing.  She talked about a couple of particularly interesting initiatives that really showcased how, as an employer, GMCR/Keurig differentiates itself, including the fact that all employees are allotted 52 hours per year to do service work at the location of their choice.  As students at Holy Cross, where the idea of being “men and women for others” is important, you could see a lot of the students intrigued that a company would do something like that.  Then, Karen also talked a lot about the importance of marketing, using examples of particularly effective television ads, to show how good marketing can clearly communicate who a company is and what they stand for and, as a result, build brand recognition and loyalty.

With the overview complete, Karen sent the students off to work in their teams to put together a presentation on how GMCR/Keurig could to a better job communicating its initiatives internally and externally as well as how the company could create a sustainable competitive advantage.  The students were charged with creating a presentation highlighting where the current strengths were and then suggesting tangible action items that could enhance GMCR/Keurig’s communications.

With just two hours to work on this presentation, the results were impressive.  The students suggested things like revamping the K-cup box to really highlight what the company is doing, creating an “Employee of the Year” award highlighting someone who really embodies GMCR/Keurig’s commitment to CSR and coming up with ways to better facilitate everyone participating in service opportunities and marketing those experiences so customers are aware they are happening.  All of the teams agreed that the “stuff” GMCR/Keurig is doing is positive – they are committed and really incorporate their corporate values into the business, but they need to figure out a way to make the initiatives clearer and broadcast them to a wider audience.

The day wrapped up with an exciting surprise – the two teams of students that Karen deemed the winners of the presentations were awarded their own Vue single cup brewers, the latest product by Keurig!  Some of the students asked to have them shipped to Holy Cross – so they’ll be ready to help them cram through the end of the semester – and a couple of the students asked them to be sent home as a nice surprise for their lucky parents!

The snow is going to roll in tomorrow so we’ll see what that means for Day 5 of ELW but, regardless, we’ve had 4 jam packed days of learning and teamwork and I think all of the students have already learned quite a bit about both careers in business and leadership skills.

As always, don’t forget to “Like” us on FACEBOOK and look for our WIBSBP and ELW groups on LinkedIN!


Helene Horan
Associate Director, Entrepreneurial Studies

Day 3 of ELW: How to be ethical and why you shouldn’t buy a BMW.

Day 3 of ELW 2013 focused on leading a company and handling “ethical pitfalls”.  Led by Tom Patton ’86, President and CEO of CASMED, and Carolyn Risoli ’86, former president of Marc by Marc Jacobs and current principal at CRisoli Consulting, the student teams spent the day reading real case studies that the executives had written and debating among themselves what the ethical questions were and how they should be decided.

The afternoon was particularly interesting as the students had to read a number of brief scenarios and then respond with how they would have acted.  Tom and Carolyn started by posing the question of: If you take a company pen home from work, is that stealing?  What about 5 pens?  10?  A box?  Your desk chair?  The students quickly realized how tricky business ethics can become as most of them thought that taking a pen wasn’t necessarily stealing but saw their logic unravel as Tom challenged them to thinking about larger items.  Another similar scenario dealt with the question of business reimbursements: If your company gives you a $7 cab ride home if you work until after 7 o’clock, is it ok to take that cab ride to a restaurant rather than home?  What about going out with your friends and then getting the cab?  The debate was lively, with lots of different points of view expressed, and Tom and Carolyn were able to weigh in with how they’ve actually navigated these situations in their roles as executives.

In addition to addressing business ethics, Tom and Carolyn talked to the students about the importance of being careful in business and how quickly things can change.  Tom offered the advice that you need to be sure to live within your means, and be financially careful, because as quickly as things can get good, they can take a turn for the worse.  Citing examples of young business people he knew, he cautioned the students against falling into the trap of wanting the biggest house and the flashiest car.  “The BMW can wait until later,” he said.

The other big message of the day?  Tom and Carolyn talked about how it’s easy to be ethical when things are good.  What’s important is making sure to remain ethical even when it’s challenging to do so.  They encouraged the students to think about two things: first, would you want to see your actions reported in the New York Times? And, second, would you be proud to tell the person you most admire – spouse, child, parent, friend, etc – about what you did?  If you’re not comfortable with both, they said, you need to re-think what you’re doing.

Overall, another really interesting day and one that got the students thinking more about what to do when things aren’t going well and how important it is for a leader to be steadfast in what he or she believes is right!

Tonight the students are off to Boston for the HC Alumni Entrepreneur Group’s Networking Session.  All of the students in ELW have been challenged to meet at least two new people tonight, so we’ll see how they do…

As always, don’t forget to “Like” us on FACEBOOK and look for our WIBSBP and ELW groups on LinkedIN!


Helene Horan
Associate Director, Entrepreneurial Studies

Should company culture be a primary or secondary concern in the business world?

Day 2 of the 2013 Executive Leadership Workshop focused on the importance of business culture in creating a sustainable business. Tom Brennan ’86, CEO of Goshido, ran the students through a series of group exercises to get them thinking about whether or not a company’s leadership team should make company culture a primary or secondary priority.

The students engaged in two debates: the first debate was focused on the question of whether company culture should be primary or secondary. However, it was the secondary debate that really got the students going! This debate was based on a Harvard Business School case study about a crisis on Northwest Airlines where customers were stranded on a grounded plane for 8+ hours due to inclimate weather. There were three teams: the customers, the CEOs and the Board of Directors.

Their challenge? The three groups had to try to appease one another – the customers wanted a settlement, the CEOs wanted to keep their jobs and the Board was worried about publicity.

Tom Brennan’s goal was to get the students thinking about the challenges that emerge in companies, particularly between different groups of constituencies, and to understand how communications need to go in order for a company to be sustainable. Tom was pretty clear that in his opinion company culture had to be a primary focus. However, after getting all riled up in the debate, I’m not sure all of the students were complete sure that they agreed.

Today’s topic: Business Ethics. The students are currently mid-discussion of whether or not it’s ok to take a pen home from work. Is that stealing? Or, is it ok…after all, it’s just a pen? Check back tomorrow to see how ethical this group really is!